Some of these thoughts might be the thoughts of employees at Cyan worlds Inc. However, this blog is my own and my thoughts have not been censored. These are my thoughts and mine alone.
Thank you for the replies. Now let me return the favor.
“(Deg) So I don't want to dismiss misbehavior as an okay thing to do because I was "playing a role."
I agree it is still wrong to intentionally grief others, especially if they don’t understand the concept that you are just doing it IC.
“(Deg) In Prologue, I yelled at Brian Fioca when Sharper was breaking into the Pub. That was real. After the event, we both apologized.”
Let’s tear this apart. You yelled at Brian Fioca (A person role playing) when Sharper (played by a Cyan Employee) broke into a place the DRC (also played by Cyan Employees) said not to go. Yes, the passion in that moment was real. Compare it to a group of Horde raiding Ironforge. Everyone on the Alliance side is going to try to stop the Horde from getting into the city. Now if you could yell at the Horde in World of Warcraft of course you would. Blizzard does not allow this. After the event you apologized to each other. You made sure that each other understood that you were just playing the role of one person for the DRC the other not agreeing to the DRC rules.
I just live under the advice not to believe anything anyone says to me. Makes it easy to forget some people don’t like me. :)
“(Deg) One of my favorite parts of Uru Live was before it ever got started. I was excited to check the DRC site each week for updates.”
I liked this too.
“(Deg) Explorers should think before they post and treat all explorers with respect. We should all have fun.”
I agree, we play games to have fun. If you aren’t having fun then you need to step back from the game and figure out why you’re not having fun. Cyan has never asked any explorers that they have to role play. We have never asked you to interact with the digital actors. We have asked you to explore and have fun. You can do this alone or with friends. We have a wonderful community and there’s bound to be someone out there with the same personality as you. We even give you a way for groups of likeminded people to hang with each other. They are called neighborhoods.
“(MSZV) Since there is no Mystworlds site council right now, it also makes sense to me this would at least be a part of their role, Mystworlds site council reps.”
This is where I personally disagree. DRCL should be communication people between DRC and Explorers. Cyan screwed up by holding OCC Town halls. It instantly confused the explorers who thought the DRCL’s were IC and made what the roles the DRCL play up for grabs. Cyan has no qualms on how the election was held or how the DRCL’s are handling things. If you did you would have heard. I did say to a DRCL member today “if you’re not having fun, you need to examine why. This is foremost a game and it should be fun.”
“(j) Frankly, Myst Online or whatever you want to call it won't have a community until there is new content and story line.”
I disagree we have a great community. However, I will agree with this fact. As we continue to grow, the community will grow and change. It’s Organic. It evolves, changes, and learns. I have started on a paper called the Darwinism of Game Development. I wonder if I will ever finish that.
“(nix zu sagen) Well, now I hate you :-D
Don’t worry, I don’t take it personally.
“(Tweek) I'm not to concerned about getting news first, oh don't get me wrong I like getting news early because it gets people visiting my site. “
With Out of Game news I have started to release information in a central location first, then let people give it out to everyone. I don’t post new news on Uru Obsession anymore. The only exclusives I see fan websites having from this point forward is interviews and screenshots. Major Press sites I don’t have much say in, since the PR group handles how information is given there.
With In-Game news, I don’t have any clue how that will work. However, I think the designers have some ideas.
“(Tweek) I'm not attacking you here let me be clear on that I am just providing a counter to your comments”
Yes, people need to understand that when people voice concerns and critisims different then your own they are not attacking you. Everyone has the right to voice concerns and criticism and it will always be this way.
“(sorceress) I personally love the line-blurring as a way to suspend disbelief in my entertainment.
I love the blurring of the line too.
But I don’t want anyone getting lost in New Mexico looking for something that’s not there.
“(Vortmax) My main complaint has been a lack of information from all sides. We're supposed to be doing a job that's all about information, passing it back and forth, and we're getting almost nothing from both the explorers and the DRC. And that is endlessly frustrating.
Well what’s the best way to get someone to pay attention to you? Start saying misinformation about them. :) I’m kidding, please don’t do that Kodama would Kick me in the Head. I hear you loud and clear.
“(cagreywolf) I remember back during prologue how fed up I was with the in-game interaction and how chaotic it was. It was NOT fun, nor enjoyable. and I'm not the only one who feels this way.
Again, Cyan has never asked any explorers that they have to role play. We have never asked you to interact with the digital actors. We have asked you to explore and have fun. Will the story change with the interaction of other explorers? Yes, but that doesn’t mean it will change the overall feeling of the game.
“(cagreywolf) Often, we have had to go through Cyan anyway, just to get the DRC to check their inbox.”
I do want to apologize to everyone that there hasn’t been more story since the DRC have returned to the cavern. The exciting news is it has given us time to smooth out bumps that we were going to have in the future. From the inside looking out, it’s a very exciting time to be a fan and work at Cyan. These exciting revelations will be in your hands this holiday season. :)
“(vaxjedi)” Does that affect what Cyan does in terms of putting out their game and their story? Probably not that much.
All I want to say is that was a nice post to read. I still believe people can be their selves and play a role. But people have to understand when I say I hate Brian Fioca and Sharper in-game. I really don’t hate them in real life. I’ve met Brian, he’s a good guy. Even if he hangs with the bad crowd in game. Yes, I’m talking about you Great Tree people... Wink wink nudge nudge :)
“(June_urutmp) Providing alternate things for people who do not want to be an IC player would be good too."
June was your experience in Prologue or Until Uru? I think Cyan has provided many areas of OOC. You have all the ages you have instances of, hoods where you don’t have to do IC, story that you don’t have to be involved in and more to come after launch. It’s weird I was having a thought on episodic content the other night. Sam and Max have animated shorts between episodes. You could say we have interactive story between content updates.
“(john lynch) One situation is when we're on the DRC forums.”
Yes the DRC forums and site is an IC site. What I am saying is its not needed for you to go to the site or required that you post on the forums. By doing so you understand it’s IC. Does going to the site let you dig deeper. Compare it to the Hanso site and Lost. Do I have to go to the Hanso site to enjoy Lost? No. Might I enjoy Lost more if I do go? Who really knows.
Yes, the DRC site has some flaws and we are working on them.
“(john lynch) With roleplaying, you can start hating someone because they're being rude, it'll be important to make sure you keep that IC and don't let it seep into the OOC.
This is sticky water. Kinda like Riven... hahaha. We don’t want trolls in the game who are mean to people and say they were role-playing when we get a harassment ticket. If I was going to start being rude to someone, I would let them know first that I’m only role-playing it. Otherwise, as someone taunting or being rude to someone, you open yourself to be banned or kicked out of the game for bad behavior. Now Digital Actors will most likely be immune to this, because it should be known that the DA’s are role-playing aspects of the game. When looking back, Sharper was the only one people really had any issue with. If you talk to the GT people they haven’t heard from him. Maybe we won’t have to worry about his mess this time around.
Peace.
12 Comments:
Grey Dragon said:
Cyan has never asked any explorers that they have to role play.
Not to be overly nitpicky, but (from my perspective anyway, it seems like) Cyan has asked us to roleplay in specific situations. One situation is when we're on the DRC forums. Unless we're in the OOC section (although Cyan has looked the other way with the DRC Liaison section as well, perhaps Cyan should ask the fans on the Uru Live forum if the DRC mods should start policing OOC posts in that section? To help emphasise the IC nature of liaisons?), Cyan has asked us to remain "in cavern" (i.e. roleplaying).
Grey Dragon said:
You made sure that each other understood that you were just playing the role of one person for the DRC the other not agreeing to the DRC rules.
I don't know if it was playing a role for Deg when he said it. And that's going to be something important us fans need to get into our heads. We'll have to make it clear to ourselves when we're playing a role. With roleplaying, you can start hating someone because they're being rude, it'll be important to make sure you keep that IC and don't let it seep into the OOC.
One complaint about the roleplaying I remember from Prologue, and I think it is still around. Is that when the characters appeared, everyone flocked to them, which made playing and exploring with people difficult and lonely. Because everyone that you wanted to play with, had flocked to the characters and were now IC, and if you didn't go with them and go IC, you were in for a lonely time while the characters were online.
While that is a problem, it isn't one of Cyan's doing. It's something you'll have to discuss with your friends. If your friends want to roleplay, and you don't, you're going to have to work out when you can explore with them OOCly, and when they can go do their thing without hurting your feelings.
Well, now that I'm on a role (hey, greydragon, I blame you for this!).
On "niceness" - I think it's really tricky when you look at the behavior of the DRC, in game. Many people made a point of "you are you" in the game. Presumeably, this means that we act with the same level of niceness with regards to other people as we would outside of the game. After all - we are the same person. Now, enter the DRC. The DRC are not in costume and they are being played (I suspect) by Cyan employees. Sure, they are supposed to playing a "role", but if they are going to be mean to players, I think that people are going to have a hard time getting it. That sort of thing is a lot easier to handle when it's really clear that people are "acting" and are "in costume". With everyone looking and acting pretty much the same, I think it's going to be way too subtle that some people are "actors" and can be mean to other players, while we hope that the rest of the players aren't mean to each other!
On communication - I can't figure out what role the DRC reps would have, other than communication. They talk to the DRC and they tell us what happened. Sometimes they have meetings in game. Sometimes (correct me if I'm wrong) some Cyan folks were interviewed - right? So, it's a communication job.
As for this not being an overall game rep - well, if that's all you have....
Really, I don't think it's that hard to get along when you are playing a IC role and someone you know is on the opposite side. For example, essjay (Safety First) and I (Great Tree) used to get into some rather heated debates, but we are still friends and I have a lot of respect for her. We both knew when to draw the line, and I don't think we were ever mean to each other. You just have to realize that there is a time and place for being IC, and it doesn't have to consume everything you do in Uru.
I do agree that the DRC site needs to become more active with official chatter from the DRC again. If nothing else, to let the newcomers know that part of playing Uru will involve roleplaying and get them accustomed to the idea.
If they do ask questions on the DRC forum in a OOC manner, the main thing is to not be rude or insensitive to their inquiries. Our focus should be to make Uru a pleasant experience for everyone.
Ashtar
That is so very true Ash, and even though you are Great Tree, I still like you! (lol)
When I was in Prologue back in early December, I was a scared little rabbit you might say. One day I noticed a message in my KI from Douglas Sharper...he wanted me to meet him by the Pub because he was going to "break" in. It was my first online experience and it gave me shivers to hear from him in that way. Needless to say, the "scared little rabbit" didn't reply! However, I did talk to some people about it and it was because of that message and the subsequent "breaking" into the Pub that I joined Safety First when Plinthon asked if I wanted to. I had never done any sort of Role Playing like that before...first online experience as I said...but I did get caught up in the drama of it.
For those who were all part of it, I definitely can understand how they are so passionate about the ICness of the game; but what I also found was that the majority of the folks who made their way to the Safety First Hood hadn't a clue what we were talking about with regard to the DRC, or Voerman's "Rebel Hearts of D'ni or eventually the Great Tree...and they didn't want to know about it either!! They wanted to talk about the ages they found, how to get further in those ages, and just meet with people from all over the world. That is the "majority" of the folks who came to Safety First Hood...and believe me it was also true of the majority of people I met while I was in the city. They just wanted to get to know other people and cared little for the developing storyline at that time.
Rudeness is "never" necessary, not even when it is part of the emotional response when caught up in the "drama". If anyone does act rudely in that manner; they should do as Deg and brian did and apologize. As for rudeness to any person down in the Cavern because they are "not" cooperating being IC...it is in my humble opinion inexcusable...there is always a way to finesse situations where two people are on opposite sides of IC/OOC and quite easily bridged. And it would be important for those who are strongly IC (in their minds) to realize that those who seem not to be, just maybe really are in "their" minds...and that is called R E S P E C T!
essjay :)
I used to try to explain the difference between IC and OOC but I've always had a hard time myself with the actual difference. I think it's because, for me, I've never played a role other than simply ignoring the fact that I wasn't actually in D'ni. By ignoring that and imagining I was actually my avatar (and believe me, I got good at this - enough that I could almost hear people speaking through their text) I was able to enjoy the entire experience. I could roam around and explore the worlds and enjoy them, and I could interact with the people there (when I met Saxy in Uru, I had talked to her for a while on IM and on forums, but when I saw her in the Neighborhood, I felt like I actually met her). Some of the people there were completely made up, including some that were part of an elaborate series of events that were going on and I could be a part of. They let me in on secrets and told me to quietly spread some of them. And they were upset with me if I did something stupid.
I do have to say there were a few times when I was so immersed that I had to rip myself away from it. Sometimes I did so breathlessly exhausted. Sometimes I did so emotionally drained. Sometimes I did so feeling ashamed of myself. After all of those times, though, I felt like I had gained from the experience. I had learned something about myself and about other people. I also learned that I could make a difference in the way everyone experienced what was happening, and I could show them that they could too.
It was right about that time when it all went away. I just hope that people will stick around long enough to let these things spread further. It took me a long time to wrap my head around what we could do. It's not an easy concept to grasp. We are all D'ni.
Me again - can't seem to stay away. Darn it Grey - that's what you get for asking me to comment!
One of the things I'd like to call attention to is the classic distinction between PvP (Player versus Player) conflict and PvE (Player versus Environment) conflict in more traditional MMORPG games. Aside from people being rude (just because, no reason), in a PvE game the source of conflict is with the environment, not with other players. Yes, I realize that it can be more complicated than that, but you get the idea.
It seems to me that, if we bring in "factions", Cyan is trying to implement some mild form of PvP in Uru Live. Sure, it's mild, no one is dying, but it's there.
You might also say that the actors in Uru Live (the actors, not the players) play the role of "the environment", so it's OK to have conflicts with them. Given that no one is in costume and everyone looks more or less the same and acts the same, I think that this difference is going to be way too subtle for most players.
The issue is the mix. If you run Uru Live all one server, you'll have people trying to wend their way through the game, trying to get along with everyone, and assuming that everyone is more or less on their side - "we are all in this together", so to speak. You'll then have other players who are not "all in this together". And you'll expect them all to play happily, all on one server, with no explanation of what is going on. The explanation would need to be in game, as part of the game environment. I think it's unrealistic to expect people to just "know" how it's going to work. I also expect the Uru Live community to be such that everyone won't know everyone.
I'm not much of a role player. Well, I am, but not in a traditional sense. I enjoy talking about Uru Live, while in the game, as if it's both "real" and "not real". I'm happy to talk about "what did you see", and "is the city open", and also talk about the lag (though hopefully we won't have to!), logging in, or other stuff. I suspect that the majority of players will be like me. From everything I've read, traditional role-players are not the majority, in any online game.
See what you think about this.
All for now.
GD: I believe most people missed my point. Uru Live does not have a new, living, vibrant, energetic community.
You have the old dusty community from back in the days of U(bi)RU. You have the Myst-Fan community that has been around forever.
Those communities attach to the new Uru Live as a bunch of auto-clique hanger-ons. While they are a community they are more exclusive and developed.
The new Uru Live does not have a living vibrant community organized entirely around it. That community is coming, but it won't be fully fledged until Live is here.
People are flailing with that concept. It's difficult to grasp and understand. But once understood it explains a lot of the "issues" the community has at this time.
As said repeatedly - these are my personal observations, not intended to offend anyone.
My unfortunate experience happened in Prologue. I was one of the first ones to be allowed in to the game in November.
I had never played any Myst games before nor had I exposed myself to the violent games available.
The same Sharper message was sent to me as well essjay and I was shocked because being so new to the game and not knowing this apparently illegal action was part of it I did not respond either. It was several days later that I found out the DRC, Phil, and all that other stuff was only pretend.
I truly believed that the DRC was the leadership of all that was done in this game. Yes I was gullible but with no experience of online games I guess I am not that stupid. But then I am one who does read rules and follow them.
Having a way for new people coming into game (and there should be many who are not familiar with Myst and prologue) to know that the DRC and groups that are IC are part of the game would have been most helpful for me.
When I suggested other things to provide to players, I was thinking more in the vein of Guilds so those people who like to feel they are being productive and doing something they are skilled in can expand the experience.
I am very familiar with all that can be done in URU and enjoy everything except IC behavior when its players are rude to those who do not want to participate in their groups. The DRC forum is full of rudeness and intolerance so a lot of people avoid it.
Now that time has passed and I have met several in RL and in game I want it understood that I know that the vast majority of all URU players are wonderful people. I love the Cyan staff too. You are all great and patient and care deeply about URU and the player experience.
Cyan has the opportunity to include more community things to do to this game that will appeal to more players rather than just having the DRC / IC senerio.
Thank you for the opportunity to get to express my ideas without trashing me like happens on the DRC forum.
Much has been said over the years about the failure of Prologue to ramp up to a successful service. However few have recognized how the news about IC conflicts in Prologue spread in a viral fashion via the Internet through the "traditional" Myst community which depressed interest and scared people off. It seems prudent to make some change in the game plan at this juncture.
From a business perspective one would suggest a conservative and time tested approach of having both IC and OOC shards available. If Wow is being held in this blog as an example of how to do IC gaming then at least adopt their successful business model of segregating the IC (role playing)people from the OOC people by hardware using separate shards.
Back in prologue Being my first online game, of course I was very timid too and spent most of my time in the ages. If I'd come across some of the IC role players going at each other toe to toe, I can assure you I would have been scared off too and propably wouldn't be here today. I like many people came to UruLive because I felt it was a very family oriented game. I never cared for the violent games and truly enjoyed my experience in Uru. I'm fearful that this could happen with the new Live. I can say in UU on D'mala, following all the fan based marketing, many parents came in first before letting their kids play. I've spoken to many parents and have assured them that the game is safe for their kids. Most of the parents I've chatted with, will not allow their kids to play the violent games.
When the new Live is launched, I'm uncertain of how things will play out. We will be getting an influx of young people who are used to the shoot-um-up games where they are allowed to be rude. If our storyline characters become abusive and rude to each other, I'm afraid of what kind of an example that will give to those young people coming in from the more violent games. Will they accept an IC argument between Safety First and The Great Tree as standard conduct and act accordingly? Will the parents of those young people who are looking for a family oriented game take their kids and run?
I think it depends on those of you who are role-playing to set the example by having some control over your passion for the drama.
While I do agree with Taelos that there should be some kind of segregration of the OOC and IC characters, I don't believe it should be on a seperate shard. Possibly a seperate city instance could be set up along with several private IC hoods for the role-play. I know that I, having been around for a while, will enjoy going to watch the drama unfold as long as I don't have to watch you guys kill each other. I would also like it to be my choice and the choice of the entire community.
SG
To be blunt, I think we all need to be friendly around each other no matter what style of play we use. And also to stop being such babies when it comes to how the game is run (which I know sounds a bit against point 1 :P). We can all be together and can all enjoy the game if we're friendly and tolerant and perhaps work out our differences instead of letting old grudges boil.
The fact that three years later the schism between IC and OOC viewpoints still flames hot is prima facie evidence that there is a problem here. Segregation is a time tested and viable technical approach to this business problem.
Following up with SuperGram's suggestion, perhaps there can be an IC/OOC play style configuration box when you create a character. Then based on that selection you will be assigned to an IC or OOC city instance. Neighborhoods could have the same cofiguration parameter, thus providing access of players to like minded players.
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